Come on guys, let's show some sympathy...
After all, in the end it was all Juve's fault...
OR maybe this was part of a deal Renzi made with Merkel...
THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
Moderator: Lupa
Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by juventino_italiano » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:04 am
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by RomaShield27 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:14 pm
It was a shocking defeat and terrible hammering, but unlike defeats like this in the past, it is not the end of the world.
Bayern were simply so good and so close to perfection that no team would haven been able to stop them in that form. Make no mistake about it, if they can replicate that performance in every game they would brush all in front of them aside on the way to glory. In that form, we lost to not only the best side in Europe, the elite, but the tactical evolvement of the game from which Guardiola's Barca dominated and which the Bayern of two seasons ago dominated.
Garcia lost the tactical battle, but in a sense there isn't much you can do to set your side up against that Bayern side, except for completely parking the bus and looking to shut the game down. Perhaps thats what we should have done, at least to some degree. Its hard to combat the way Guardiola had them set up – it was a free flowing formation with players moving all over the pitch – but I suppose the most obvious thing was how our three forward players were so out of the game as we just couldn't get hold of the ball deeper to get them involved. In that sense perhaps we should have played our wing-forwards much deeper, say Florenzi and Iturbe effectively as wing-backs. Totti maybe also shouldn't have started in such a case, with the pace of Gervinho or the movement of Destro in the middle being more effective. But it all comes back to Garcia playing his own game and sticking with what he knows, and why shouldn't he, as its been so successful thus far. We were confident of winning this game going into it. But this Bayern side is something else altogether, and we were ripped to shreds for it.
But, another trait which Garcia has instilled is confidence and resilience. Obviously its imperative to bounce back straight away after a defeat like this, butyou get the genuine feeling with this squad that they will. Garcia's and De Rossi's words in the aftermath, the belief and spirit in the squad, the hunger for success, all of that should make us bounce back in training and against Sampdoria.
Bayern were simply so good and so close to perfection that no team would haven been able to stop them in that form. Make no mistake about it, if they can replicate that performance in every game they would brush all in front of them aside on the way to glory. In that form, we lost to not only the best side in Europe, the elite, but the tactical evolvement of the game from which Guardiola's Barca dominated and which the Bayern of two seasons ago dominated.
Garcia lost the tactical battle, but in a sense there isn't much you can do to set your side up against that Bayern side, except for completely parking the bus and looking to shut the game down. Perhaps thats what we should have done, at least to some degree. Its hard to combat the way Guardiola had them set up – it was a free flowing formation with players moving all over the pitch – but I suppose the most obvious thing was how our three forward players were so out of the game as we just couldn't get hold of the ball deeper to get them involved. In that sense perhaps we should have played our wing-forwards much deeper, say Florenzi and Iturbe effectively as wing-backs. Totti maybe also shouldn't have started in such a case, with the pace of Gervinho or the movement of Destro in the middle being more effective. But it all comes back to Garcia playing his own game and sticking with what he knows, and why shouldn't he, as its been so successful thus far. We were confident of winning this game going into it. But this Bayern side is something else altogether, and we were ripped to shreds for it.
But, another trait which Garcia has instilled is confidence and resilience. Obviously its imperative to bounce back straight away after a defeat like this, butyou get the genuine feeling with this squad that they will. Garcia's and De Rossi's words in the aftermath, the belief and spirit in the squad, the hunger for success, all of that should make us bounce back in training and against Sampdoria.
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by juventino_italiano » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:50 pm
Benatia and his agents are truly pieces of shit
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by RomaShield27 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:18 pm
I haven't read this or much else about the match prior to my above post, but good to see Colly is thinking along the same lines.
Although was it Totti who said this? "A scudetto here is worth 10 in other cities." I thought it was Tommasi.
/By Colin O'Brien , Featured Columnist Oct 21, 2014
It isn't easy to find positives in a 1-7 home defeat, even if it was to arguably the best side in football. But in some respects, Roma might have seen it coming.
No team wants to think about suffering such resounding subjugation but attempting to climb from the mire of mid-table mediocrity in Italy to the highest level of European football was never going to be easy.
Prior to the game, the atmosphere in the Olimpico was electric. It's an emotional place in general, and even when it falls far short of its 70,000 capacity, Rome's cavernous stadium is never short on ambiance. The last time Bayern Munich came to town, in 2010, it was a 3-2 thriller and the sellout crowd expected more of the same.
Of course, a lot has happened to both teams since Francesco Totti's 84th-minute penalty gave the Giallorossi that win four years ago.
Bayern have won the Champions League after finishing runners-up, and built a squad that provided the core for Germany's convincing march to victory in this summer's World Cup. Fortunes have been more mixed in the Italian capital.
That win over the Germans in 2010 was the swansong of the old regime; a final fling from an ageing group of players at a club that had been in decline for years. They could still mix it with the best on a good day, but they struggled against Cluj and lost to Basel in Rome.
Since then, the Lupi have found new American owners, and after stumbling somewhat in the early stages, they have begun an ambitious project not just to restore the club but to reinvent it.
Roma is a curious case. It's one of the world's most famous clubs, but it lacks the trophy cabinet of a truly big team. There's always been an element of fatalism among fans in the capital, an acceptance—or acquiescence, at least—that though they might play beautiful football in a city that lives and breathes for the game, success would evade them.
As Totti has often said, "A scudetto here is worth 10 in other cities." The traditional power in Italian football is rooted firmly in the wealthy north, and coupled with the corruption of the past and the country's love for Machiavellian conspiracy theories, Romanisti were resigned to the fact that the fates were aligned against them.
Zdenek Zeman, for example, is a legend not because he won anything—he never wins anything—but because he played a brand of football that was as chaotic and bewitching as the city itself, and because he never missed an opportunity to take up arms against the calcio's traditional powers.
That, and victory in the derby with Lazio, used to be enough. When success did come, it was always the exception rather than the rule. Not anymore. The new ownership has set out to change that mentality and awaken the biggest sleeping giant of Italian football. This Roma, while still playing to entertain, also plays to win.
A measure of success has come surprisingly quickly in Serie A, but competing with Europe's elite was never going to be so easy. Most of the clubs that Roma would like to equal have vastly bigger budgets and more importantly, a wealth of experience playing at the highest level. That's why a disappointment like this one was somewhat inevitable.
Bayern have one of the best squads in the world but technically Roma shouldn't feel as if they're far from the mark. The defense could have done with Leandro Castan, but players like Daniele De Rossi, Miralem Pjanic and Radja Nainggolan would not be out of place at the Allianz Arena or the Santiago Bernabeu.
The difference on the night was not so much about ability—it was between the two sides' mentality where the real gulf lay.
The last time Roma suffered such a heavy defeat, against Manchester United in the 2006-07 UCL quarter-finals, it was a very different situation.
Luciano Spalletti's time in Rome saw some happy moments and they often ran Inter close to the title, but in the wake of Calciopoli the league was in tatters and they were the only two clubs left unscathed.
The Tuscan coach did a remarkable job on a limited budget and is still remembered fondly by fans but after that debacle at Old Trafford it was clear he'd hit a glass ceiling that would frustrate him until his departure in 2009. Rosella Sensi, then president, had no money to spend and Spalletti was left to make do with a host of below-par new recruits every summer.
By contrast, Rudi Garica has enjoyed generous support since coming to Trigoria in 2013. The Frenchman has the kind of talent at his disposal that his recent predecessors could only have dreamed about and though the team is still a work in progress, there's no reason why they should allow themselves to dwell too much on this heavy defeat.
It's hard to swallow, sure, and more than a little depressing, but Garcia needs to lift his players and make sure that rather than allowing themselves to be overwhelmed by the scoreline, they learn from it.
With the exception of Totti, Daniele De Rossi and Maicon, the first team lacks winning experience. There's an abundance of aptitude, but as games like this one—and the capitulations to Juventus last season—show, they sometimes fall short when it comes to application.
The Roma that conceded five goals in the first half to a rampant Bayern wasn't the real Roma. Not even close to it. But having never faced such a ferocious and unforgiving adversary, the squad lacked the mental fortitude to get off the back foot after Robben's opener.
Garcia will also learn some valuable lessons. Bayern knew how Roma would play and—much like Antonio Conte's Juventus—were set up perfectly to neutralise the threat. The Giallorossi can't expect to play the same style of football against Chievo Verona and a continental heavyweight if they want the same result.
If they can understand where they went wrong and work to make sure they don't do it again, this team can be stronger for the loss. Then, the shock of it—horrible though it must be in the short term—might even have some long-term benefit.
Roma aren't going to win the Champions League this year. That was never a realistic goal. They might reach the latter stages, and eventually lose to a superior side by a smaller margin. But in the dust of this 1-7 demolition, a clear line has been drawn for them. They now know—better than they ever hoped to—just how far they still have to go.
With some fine-tuning this Roma side can dominate in Italy and become a regular threat in Europe. No one doubts their quality. What they need now is composure.
Although was it Totti who said this? "A scudetto here is worth 10 in other cities." I thought it was Tommasi.
/By Colin O'Brien , Featured Columnist Oct 21, 2014
It isn't easy to find positives in a 1-7 home defeat, even if it was to arguably the best side in football. But in some respects, Roma might have seen it coming.
No team wants to think about suffering such resounding subjugation but attempting to climb from the mire of mid-table mediocrity in Italy to the highest level of European football was never going to be easy.
Prior to the game, the atmosphere in the Olimpico was electric. It's an emotional place in general, and even when it falls far short of its 70,000 capacity, Rome's cavernous stadium is never short on ambiance. The last time Bayern Munich came to town, in 2010, it was a 3-2 thriller and the sellout crowd expected more of the same.
Of course, a lot has happened to both teams since Francesco Totti's 84th-minute penalty gave the Giallorossi that win four years ago.
Bayern have won the Champions League after finishing runners-up, and built a squad that provided the core for Germany's convincing march to victory in this summer's World Cup. Fortunes have been more mixed in the Italian capital.
That win over the Germans in 2010 was the swansong of the old regime; a final fling from an ageing group of players at a club that had been in decline for years. They could still mix it with the best on a good day, but they struggled against Cluj and lost to Basel in Rome.
Since then, the Lupi have found new American owners, and after stumbling somewhat in the early stages, they have begun an ambitious project not just to restore the club but to reinvent it.
Roma is a curious case. It's one of the world's most famous clubs, but it lacks the trophy cabinet of a truly big team. There's always been an element of fatalism among fans in the capital, an acceptance—or acquiescence, at least—that though they might play beautiful football in a city that lives and breathes for the game, success would evade them.
As Totti has often said, "A scudetto here is worth 10 in other cities." The traditional power in Italian football is rooted firmly in the wealthy north, and coupled with the corruption of the past and the country's love for Machiavellian conspiracy theories, Romanisti were resigned to the fact that the fates were aligned against them.
Zdenek Zeman, for example, is a legend not because he won anything—he never wins anything—but because he played a brand of football that was as chaotic and bewitching as the city itself, and because he never missed an opportunity to take up arms against the calcio's traditional powers.
That, and victory in the derby with Lazio, used to be enough. When success did come, it was always the exception rather than the rule. Not anymore. The new ownership has set out to change that mentality and awaken the biggest sleeping giant of Italian football. This Roma, while still playing to entertain, also plays to win.
A measure of success has come surprisingly quickly in Serie A, but competing with Europe's elite was never going to be so easy. Most of the clubs that Roma would like to equal have vastly bigger budgets and more importantly, a wealth of experience playing at the highest level. That's why a disappointment like this one was somewhat inevitable.
Bayern have one of the best squads in the world but technically Roma shouldn't feel as if they're far from the mark. The defense could have done with Leandro Castan, but players like Daniele De Rossi, Miralem Pjanic and Radja Nainggolan would not be out of place at the Allianz Arena or the Santiago Bernabeu.
The difference on the night was not so much about ability—it was between the two sides' mentality where the real gulf lay.
The last time Roma suffered such a heavy defeat, against Manchester United in the 2006-07 UCL quarter-finals, it was a very different situation.
Luciano Spalletti's time in Rome saw some happy moments and they often ran Inter close to the title, but in the wake of Calciopoli the league was in tatters and they were the only two clubs left unscathed.
The Tuscan coach did a remarkable job on a limited budget and is still remembered fondly by fans but after that debacle at Old Trafford it was clear he'd hit a glass ceiling that would frustrate him until his departure in 2009. Rosella Sensi, then president, had no money to spend and Spalletti was left to make do with a host of below-par new recruits every summer.
By contrast, Rudi Garica has enjoyed generous support since coming to Trigoria in 2013. The Frenchman has the kind of talent at his disposal that his recent predecessors could only have dreamed about and though the team is still a work in progress, there's no reason why they should allow themselves to dwell too much on this heavy defeat.
It's hard to swallow, sure, and more than a little depressing, but Garcia needs to lift his players and make sure that rather than allowing themselves to be overwhelmed by the scoreline, they learn from it.
With the exception of Totti, Daniele De Rossi and Maicon, the first team lacks winning experience. There's an abundance of aptitude, but as games like this one—and the capitulations to Juventus last season—show, they sometimes fall short when it comes to application.
The Roma that conceded five goals in the first half to a rampant Bayern wasn't the real Roma. Not even close to it. But having never faced such a ferocious and unforgiving adversary, the squad lacked the mental fortitude to get off the back foot after Robben's opener.
Garcia will also learn some valuable lessons. Bayern knew how Roma would play and—much like Antonio Conte's Juventus—were set up perfectly to neutralise the threat. The Giallorossi can't expect to play the same style of football against Chievo Verona and a continental heavyweight if they want the same result.
If they can understand where they went wrong and work to make sure they don't do it again, this team can be stronger for the loss. Then, the shock of it—horrible though it must be in the short term—might even have some long-term benefit.
Roma aren't going to win the Champions League this year. That was never a realistic goal. They might reach the latter stages, and eventually lose to a superior side by a smaller margin. But in the dust of this 1-7 demolition, a clear line has been drawn for them. They now know—better than they ever hoped to—just how far they still have to go.
With some fine-tuning this Roma side can dominate in Italy and become a regular threat in Europe. No one doubts their quality. What they need now is composure.
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by Aquilotto » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:33 pm
"Concordia parvae res crescunt, discordia maximae dilabuntur."
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by Bagg10 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:24 pm
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by RomaShield27 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:33 pm
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by RomaShield27 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:48 am
Didn't see this video of the fans swapping scarves. When you see it, its actually quite a unique thing in modern football, fair play to them all.
http://www.talkingbaws.com/2014/10/23/v ... -1-result/?
http://www.talkingbaws.com/2014/10/23/v ... -1-result/?
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by DavidP » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:09 pm
- yanga mbiwa is good at intercepting the ball very early and constructing play (our best pass of the game came from him right after the first goal) but has no clue how to mark. he is not a central defender and him vs. muller was a sorry sight.
- manolas has a long way to go before he reaches benatia's level. for all that is said about mehdi's lack of pace he outran a fresh ljajic on the 80th minute pretty easily. i also don't remember him losing the ball 4-5 times per game.
- why cole started is beyond me. when you winger is 10 km/h faster than you, you just don't have a chance. when holebas came on, he could afford to close robben down rather than giving him 5 meters of space every time he got the ball and it made a hell of a difference.
- i am not quite sure that de rossi is still world class. granted, he is coming off an injury and lacks match fitness but he just doesn't have the speed or acceleration to deal with a world class attacker and even looked mentally slow vs. bayern. when they intensified their pressing he could not deal with it. the gaps he left at the edge of the box in the first half were very frustrating to see. he played a good first-time ball once during the whole game (to florenzi) and we scored a goal. i imagine the game would have been much different with keita (or taddei) playing and we wouldn't have had to sit back as much as we did after the first 10 minutes.
- why nainngolan wasn't given some rest before the big game i just do not understand. he looked very far from crisp and his game can not afford that. rudi's decision to have him and de rossi swap positions a couple of times was mind-boggling as well, there is no way radja can play there unless both him and DDR are sitting in front of the defense at the same time (as they were at times).
- pjanic was by far the best player on the pitch for us. that said, he should have made himself available and imposed himself on the game much more. he adapted to totti's position very well in the second half, though starting deeper also suits him well. could he be the eventual replacement?
- totti played far too forward to have had any influence on the game. he was crowded out almost every time he got the ball and had to stick with one-touch back-passes.
- gervinho got himself into some fantastic positions and could have had 4 or 5 goals on another day or against a human goalkeeper. he did alright as a lone striker, though clearly that is only an option when we are sitting back.
- iturbe didn't quite look 100% fit, made some silly mistakes from over-eagerness and inexperience but he is a good player with lots of potential. i like his willingness to track back and his change of pace proved too much to handle a couple of times on tuesday.
- manolas has a long way to go before he reaches benatia's level. for all that is said about mehdi's lack of pace he outran a fresh ljajic on the 80th minute pretty easily. i also don't remember him losing the ball 4-5 times per game.
- why cole started is beyond me. when you winger is 10 km/h faster than you, you just don't have a chance. when holebas came on, he could afford to close robben down rather than giving him 5 meters of space every time he got the ball and it made a hell of a difference.
- i am not quite sure that de rossi is still world class. granted, he is coming off an injury and lacks match fitness but he just doesn't have the speed or acceleration to deal with a world class attacker and even looked mentally slow vs. bayern. when they intensified their pressing he could not deal with it. the gaps he left at the edge of the box in the first half were very frustrating to see. he played a good first-time ball once during the whole game (to florenzi) and we scored a goal. i imagine the game would have been much different with keita (or taddei) playing and we wouldn't have had to sit back as much as we did after the first 10 minutes.
- why nainngolan wasn't given some rest before the big game i just do not understand. he looked very far from crisp and his game can not afford that. rudi's decision to have him and de rossi swap positions a couple of times was mind-boggling as well, there is no way radja can play there unless both him and DDR are sitting in front of the defense at the same time (as they were at times).
- pjanic was by far the best player on the pitch for us. that said, he should have made himself available and imposed himself on the game much more. he adapted to totti's position very well in the second half, though starting deeper also suits him well. could he be the eventual replacement?
- totti played far too forward to have had any influence on the game. he was crowded out almost every time he got the ball and had to stick with one-touch back-passes.
- gervinho got himself into some fantastic positions and could have had 4 or 5 goals on another day or against a human goalkeeper. he did alright as a lone striker, though clearly that is only an option when we are sitting back.
- iturbe didn't quite look 100% fit, made some silly mistakes from over-eagerness and inexperience but he is a good player with lots of potential. i like his willingness to track back and his change of pace proved too much to handle a couple of times on tuesday.
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by DCGweez » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:23 pm
I only watched the first half but i thought Iturbe looked "best" (Perhaps the least terrible) and Pjanic was terrible.
Perhaps it changed in the second half i don't know. I couldn't swallow it anymore.
Perhaps it changed in the second half i don't know. I couldn't swallow it anymore.
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by DavidP » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:29 pm
interesting dcg, i'm not sure i saw him make a single below average play on the ball in the first half. why did you think he was terrible?
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by DCGweez » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:03 pm
Off the ball i thought he did a poor job shutting down space.
Totally agree with you on DDR though. Noticed it this summer in Brazil. Looks painfully slow. I actually think i said it in the SB during the game. I hope it's lack of fitness and not age and injury finally catching up with him.
Totally agree with you on DDR though. Noticed it this summer in Brazil. Looks painfully slow. I actually think i said it in the SB during the game. I hope it's lack of fitness and not age and injury finally catching up with him.
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by DavidP » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:03 pm
even before totti went off he often moved up at iturbe's expense and pressured the center-backs. i think he had a couple of solid interceptions in midfield as well, i'm sure there are stats out there showing that. his tackles aren't as flashy as radja's but i think he does his a share of dirty work. someone posted his mileage per game a couple of weeks ago and if i remember correctly it was very impressive for such a technical player.
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by DCGweez » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:23 pm
I meant for that game specifically, not in general. They just ran down his side then cut inside and passed out to their right.
Again, i can only speak for the first half.
Again, i can only speak for the first half.
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by DavidP » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:28 pm
yes, they had a couple of those plays in the first half, but i'm not sure you can blame pjanic for any of them (torosidis didn't exactly have a perfect game, though he did as well as one could expect from him). he certainly wasn't at fault for any of the goals. i can't really recall an instance where mira got dribbled around like de rossi did by alaba or gotze, but maybe i was too distracted by the good things he did. he is just such a smooth player and i don't think the TV screen does his technique and vision enough justice.
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by DCGweez » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:49 pm
Agreed, great player.
As i said earlier in this thread, the most disappointing thing about that loss was the inability of our MF to put up a fight. Had i guessed i'd have said that was the only thing that would hold up and it was totally outclassed.
As i said earlier in this thread, the most disappointing thing about that loss was the inability of our MF to put up a fight. Had i guessed i'd have said that was the only thing that would hold up and it was totally outclassed.
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by Lupa » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:51 pm
Having not seen anything of the game, I can't comment on how anyone played or appeared to play, but I did feel that DeRossi didn't look very fit at the WC. He's a little young to be 'past it' ... if our mf is so packed, could we see him moving back to be a central defender as a possibility?
Disappointed that our well regarded (by us anyway) mf was outclassed. Let's hope we get back on track tomorrow.
Disappointed that our well regarded (by us anyway) mf was outclassed. Let's hope we get back on track tomorrow.
“I won things with that shirt and I know what it means. In no other city does a victory mean as much as in Rome."
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by DavidP » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:19 am
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Re: THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II
by pocari_fenrir » Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:23 pm
Ciao Maro, Shield, Davit
Thanks for the ticket tips. Been so busy lately that I don't get to hang around here during game days. Changed jobs almost a year ago and pretty out of my element at it, but still doing alright. Ive been able to follow the league more closely the past 2 seasons under Garcia. It's also been hella lot more interesting.
Hope we can bounce back from our CL loss. Didn't really expect a result over Bayern, but definitely didn't expect a whooping. So long as we get a result over City, we're out of the group. A lot of good articles to restore the faith out there but it seems we still have full back problems. A good show of character from our fans exchanging scarves with Bayern fans and mourning the loss of a fellow fan
Thanks for the ticket tips. Been so busy lately that I don't get to hang around here during game days. Changed jobs almost a year ago and pretty out of my element at it, but still doing alright. Ive been able to follow the league more closely the past 2 seasons under Garcia. It's also been hella lot more interesting.
Hope we can bounce back from our CL loss. Didn't really expect a result over Bayern, but definitely didn't expect a whooping. So long as we get a result over City, we're out of the group. A lot of good articles to restore the faith out there but it seems we still have full back problems. A good show of character from our fans exchanging scarves with Bayern fans and mourning the loss of a fellow fan
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