Open conversazione

[juventino_italiano]

[red]

At this point, you would have to say Juve's CL campaign was a success.

They got out of a tough group and were only knocked out when they came up against a top side. Whether losing to a top side comes in the first knockout round or the final is sort of beside the point.

Not that it's a measure I like to use, but they also surpassed their budgetary aims for the CL, as they had, I believe, only factored in progressing from the group stage and losing in the first round.

Of course, just how much of success the campaign has been will only truly be known once we see what lessons they have learned from this year and how they go about tackling the competition in future years.

[p_maldini_3]

at the pace the game is being played nowadays, i don't think there are any wingbacks that have the engines to dominate the entire flank of the pitch for a full 90 against a top-class team.

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Yeah, I don't see how any one player is going to contain, never mind dominate, a flank when playing against a Lahm-Muller/Robben pairing or a Alaba-Ribery pairing.

Where is the advantage for a team playing 3-5-2 against 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3?

The 3-5-2 is outnumbered on the flanks and only has parity in midfield. It's also dificult to arrange the defence since you have three centre-backs playing one striker.

The one thing 3-5-2 gives you, to my mind, is the platform to play with two genuine forwards.

Is that enough to justify the other difficulties the system causes?

Particularly in Juve's case, with their lack of good forwards, is playing two iffy forwards instead of one really all that helpful? Certainly didn't aid them against Bayern - even with Bayern's centre-backs being the weakest part of their team.

There are times I would end up playing a sort of 3-5-2, but it would most probably come from making slight adjustments to another system for a particular opponent.

I think the only match-up I really like for a 3-5-2 is against a team playing 4-3-1-2 (or similar).

[RomaShield27]

Juventus playmaker provided a 20-minute cameo in midweek, his abilities overtaken by the more utilitarian model

Barney Ronay / The Guardian, Friday 12 April 2013 16.51 BST / http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog ... o-juventus

Andrea Pirlo of Juventus, left, closes down Bayern Munich's Bastian Schweinsteiger, the type of player whose more workaday skills have all but eclipsed those of the Italian playmaker. Photograph: Alessandro Garofalo/Reuters
A while back I thought I'd stumbled on something interesting. Watching Spanish football on television I noticed the chanting of "Olé" in appreciation of a lengthy passing move was subtly different to the same process in England. Here "Olé" comes when a player actually receives the ball. In Spain the "Olé" seemed to come a microsecond earlier, as the pass was being made, a celebration apparently of the pass itself and not so much of the baffling miracle of it actually reaching its target.

Instantly all sorts of wider themes began to thicken and swirl: historic differences, the existential preoccupation with action over outcome, an entire blood-red social history opening up out of this single conceit. Perhaps this was The Big One: a best selling book, a follow-up (The Olé Paradigm: Reloaded) a documentary film, and after that the carousel of self‑propelling celebrity from university fellowships to appearances on Question Time in the loudmouth-maverick role ("I'm joined by the chancellor of the exchequer, an oddly compelling far‑right columnist, and billionaire author of the Olé Code and one-time Guardian football nobody …" my name already eclipsed by the overheated cheers and whistles). Yes. This was all definitely going to happen.

I sat on it for a while, letting it thicken and foment in secret. Then in an unguarded moment I finally outlined the basic tenets of the Olé Dynamic to a friend who happened to work in television, sat back and waited for the … Oh … Oh I see …

In fact, it turns out, the reason the Spanish Olés appear to emerge on the pass rather than after the pass is something to do with TV feeds and sound loops. It's not the cultural whatnot. It's a business of satellite broadcast disjunct. In reality it's pretty much the same. They Olé. We Olé. Whatever.

Moving on from this collapsed world of grand, strolling monocled literary fame there has been some consolation since in the relative disappearance of Olés at football.

For whatever reason, the Olés have been soft-pedalled in recent times, although I did think of them again this week while watching Juventus lose at home to Bayern Munich in the Champions League, a match that might even turn out to be a last real headline European appearance for one of the great modern passing footballers, the creaking, baroque, gorgeously decaying Andrea Pirlo.

Still the same floating, mooching figure, the kind of footballer who seems somehow to be playing in cowboy boots and a safari suit, it was only last summer Pirlo managed to fool England and Germany into thinking he was simply a very slow old man, even while toddling about removing their wallets and watch-chains and bowing them out through the exit door.

With this in mind it was jarring to find first-hand evidence of a genuine fading away, something unseemly in seeing Pirlo harried and chased, like witnessing the Queen Mother being jostled during an appearance at an agricultural fair. Particularly because for 20 minutes in the first half, drawing himself up to his full knock-kneed height, he was briefly and brilliantly Pirlo again, cranking his ancient Ford into life, leather goggles in place, and juddering off around the familiar old dust roads, silk scarf flying.

There were the little dancing steps, those beautiful lofted medium-range passes and above all a lingering sense of familiar persuasive rhythms being laid down. It is fair to say that if Thomas Müller is a raumdeuter, or "space interpreter", then Pirlo is a space conductor, flourishing his baton with a sense of deftly fingered command, swirling on his plinth, filleting out the spaces between the people.

Not that there was anything to show for it. On Uefa's analysis of the match Pirlo's No21 blob basically doesn't move from its central lurk-hole. Even his pass completion statistics were unusually low, tribute to the simple fact of playing in a hugely outclassed team. In spite of which there were still some luminous Pirlo moments, including one lovingly ushered back-spun miracle of a pass out of trouble near his own corner flag, and the usual temptation simply to marvel at what an unusual footballer he is: plus of course a distinctly, almost definitively un-English one.

In this country we've never really trusted the space conductor, insisting always that he is at least encumbered with a proper job, making the passing midfielder fill time by clashing the cymbals, parping the bassoon, clanking together the tambourines taped to his knees, just as in his successful late period at Manchester United the Space conductor manque Michael Carrick has become a top-class defensive interceptor, a brilliant sub-editor of a football match where he might once have hoped to become the leader-writer.

In this respect Glenn Hoddle also springs to mind, a constant source of hand-wringing fury over his lack of bark and snarl and snap, and reduced to trudging around English football of the 1980s like some prog rock virtuoso mistakenly corralled into a punk-metal band, still performing his frilly-shirted harpsichord solos, soaked in snot and spit, pint glasses flying past his head as he turns, drowned out by the surrounding thrash, to his triple-necked electric lute.

Although watching Pirlo again this week, the thought occurred that while it is tempting to paint Pirlo as part of a wider, more sophisticated flaneurial world beyond the ken of our own panic-ridden midfield fight-men, in fact he is an oddity in the wider world, too. The space conductor has long been a dying breed, replaced by the upgraded and refined modern-day pass-specialist: the space-probe, the space-shuttle, the lateral wiles of the space destroyer.

Pirlo really is the last unicorn. There are no ranks of hunched and strolling spring chickens ready to slope centre-stage and set about dinking the world into submission. With good reason, too.

It wasn't that Pirlo passed poorly against Bayern but more that, like the tiger, his natural habitat has frittered away, his pastures shrunk by the newly built-up architecture of the pitch. Little wonder you don't hear the Olés so much now when the extended pass-about is often simply marking time, recalibrating the tempo, the best passing midfielders looking to create space by concerted manipulation rather than maverick invention, a craft that finds its glorious acme in the unrelenting hypnosis-football of Barcelona.

Similarly in Turin the central presence once that interlude had run its course was Bastian Schweinsteiger, also an expert passer but beyond this an expertly bothersome presence. The only Pirlo out there was Pirlo himself, present almost in tribute form: Vegas Pirlo, still taking the cheers for his 10-minute sets, toting about his fading‑star wattage on a stage too cramped and oppressively well-lit to provide those hidden pockets in which he flowers.

And really we shouldn't blame the conductor for any of this. In the end, it's just the spaces that got small.

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I do love how players can't play bad games once they get past a certain age without being finished.

[Bagg10]

I dont get these links to Sanchez. What we need is a 20+ goals a season forward, and Sanchez is hardly that player.

Unless Conte thinks Llorente is going to be that guy, AND he wants to change his tactics to a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3, I dont see a reason to spend so much on what I consider to be a winger(not really a supporting forward imo).

What we really need, especially if we're going to change up tactics to compete in Europe, is a quality LB and probably another CB.

I also hope Marotta is making a serious effort to get Verratti.

So our summer shopping list should be (20+ goals a season) forward,quality LB,CB(quality depends on how much faith Conte is going to put in Caceres/Marrone),and Verratti.

[red]

I don't disagree with you on Sanchez, though I wouldn't consider him a winger since his one really good season in Serie A came when playing just behind Di Natale.

While he is a very good player, I'd also be looking for someone who scores more goals to play with Llorente. Suarez would be the ideal option and I'd also take Jovetic over Sanchez. Suarez isn't realistic, though, and I'm not sure what chance there is of Fiorentina selling to Juve when they are likely to have other offers from foreign clubs.

I like Llorente a lot, but I don't see him as someone who is going to score a heap of goals. What he does provide is excellent link-up play, which means Juve shouldn't need a dedicated creative player to play SS, which does open up the possibility of going for more of a goal scorer in that position.

I don't doubt Juve would be in for Verratti if he was leaving PSG, but I haven't seen any realy suggestion that that is likely to happen this summer.

[red]

Decent performance from Juve and some interesting stuff happening regarding the system.

Lazio's intention at the start of the game seemed to be to try and play something like a 4-2-3-1 with Hernanes putting pressure on Pirlo, and to have Mauri and Candreva asking questions of Juve in the space between the wing-backs and centre-backs.

However, with Juve playing the extra man in midfield, Lazio quickly had to ditch those ideas: Hernanes had to drop deeper to support Onazi and Ledesma against Juve's three more advanced midfielders, which left Pirlo without a direct opponent for most of the first half; Peluso stepped forward to mark Mauri, which left Asamoah free to push up the left side and not be burdened with defensive reponsibilities; and, with Lichtsteiner powering up the right and causing a problem, Lazio had to pull Candreva deeper to deal with him as Stankevicius couldn't do it alone.

So there went Lazio's attacking threat.

However, even with those adjustments, Lazio still couldn't stop Juve from opening them up pretty regularly. If their defence went narrow to try and prevent Juve's midfield runners bursting through, there was heaps of space for Juve's wing-backs. If Lazio made an effort to close down the space in wide areas, Juve were able to pick passes through the centre.

The extra man in midfield meant that Juve were still able to get some of the classic advantages associated with 3-5-2 (great presence through the middle) and that forced Lazio into surrendering the advantage that they should have had on the flanks.

Second half was a bit of a non event. Petkovic made good changes at half time (change to 3-4-1-2, with Ederson on Pirlo and generally getting Lazio on the front foot and trying to squeeze the game more) and the intensity completely disappeared from Juve's game as they were quite happy they had the lead and that Lazio couldn't hurt them.

Now, I wouldn't go overboard about the 3-5-1-1 system, as Lazio were missing half of their first choice team, but the extra man in midfield was interesting and would appear to be worthy of further consideration as an option against 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 opponents.

[RomaShield27]

/ by James Horncastle at Thursday, Apr 18 2013 12:08

Here, there, Arturo Vidal was everywhere. So much so that La Gazzetta dello Sport claimed he wasn’t a footballer, but an illusionist. The pink paper’s reasoning was simple: against Lazio on Monday night, the Juventus midfielder gave the appearance he was in two places at once.

Journalists in the press box at the Stadio Olimpico joked that they were seeing double. What system were Juventus playing again? 3-5-1-1 or 3-5-2-1? They might as well have had an extra man. Yet there was no trickery to Vidal’s ubiquity.

This is a player who, perhaps more than anyone else at Juventus, exemplifies coach Antonio Conte’s “Eat Grass” philosophy. One could argue that not since the legs and lungs of Pavel Nedved, a different kind of player, I admit, has the team had someone capable of covering so much ground to say nothing of running opponents into it.

A glance at Vidal’s heat map from the season’s Serie A games gives an indication of his range of action. It has a perfect storm quality to it. There’s nowhere to hide. No escaping his clutches. Either that or it looks in relative size and shape a bit like Australia only with Vidal as a Tasmanian devil across on a visit from Tassie.

A whirlwind of energy and hyper activity, there was a moment midway through the second half of Monday night’s trip to Lazio that epitomized Vidal. A ball came loose on the edge of the Juventus penalty area. He slid to recover it, got up and then went on the charge, beating one man, then a second and a third before offloading it, even gesturing to whom his teammate should pass it.

Any normal person would by then have felt the burn of lactic acid building up in their muscles and relented. Not Vidal. He just gritted his teeth and got on with it. No wonder they call him El Guerrero or The Warrior back in his native Chile.

That fighting spirit, his grinta, makes Vidal the prototypical Juventus player, one in whom Conte can see himself again, but - and this is written with all due respect - there’s more to Vidal’s game than there was his own. Spend time thinking about this team, and what defines it – the work ethic, the pressing, the never say die attitude – and it’s built as much if not more in Vidal’s image than, say, Andrea Pirlo’s.

Note the word “image,” not importance.

Pirlo is absolutely fundamental to Juventus and was quite correctly identified as the principal difference between them and the rest of Serie A last season. Without Vidal and Claudio Marchisio in front of him, though, he wouldn’t have been able to do his best work, which, given how much of Juventus’ game is built around midfield runners, is also to get the best out of them. It’s a two-way thing. They’re dependent on each other.

But, for me, Vidal represents Conte’s Juventus as well as anyone. What that’s about is beating your opponent to every ball, taking it off him, bossing the game, imposing yourself on it and showing that you want it more.




Only Torino centre-back Matteo Darmian has made as many tackles per game as Vidal in Serie A this season [5.2]. And only Napoli midfielder Valon Behrami [145] and his Genoa counterpart Juraj ‘the Tank’ Kucka [135] have thrown themselves into as many challenges as him [134] over the campaign as a whole.

It’s what Vidal does next, though, that separates him from the rest. He follows the play, makes sure he gets into the opponent’s penalty area and either sets up a teammate to score or does so himself. His second against Lazio on Tuesday night is a perfect example.

At this stage, Vidal has more assists than any other Juventus player in Serie A games this season, with 7, and is their second highest scorer in all competitions, with 12. No one with 10 or more goals plus assists in Serie A has made anywhere near as many tackles and interceptions [170] as he has done. He is the complete midfield package.

Look more closely at the 19 goals Vidal has scored for Juventus over the last 18 months and you gain an appreciation of just how decisive a player he is to his team.

Six have come when the scoreline was 0-0 and broke the deadlock. Eight have come when Juventus were 1-0 up and looking to put the game beyond opponents. One came when his team were 2-1 down in the Italian Super Cup in Beijing and was the equaliser that sent the game to extra-time and penalties, which Juventus won. Another was at Stamford Bridge in September, which grabbed his team a foothold in the game and allowed them to clamber back from 2-0 down to record a 2-2 draw with Chelsea, the Champions League holders.

In light of all that, you can no doubt understand why there’s reported interest from Real Madrid, Manchester City, Paris Saint Germain and Bayern Munich.

Arguments have been made as to why Juventus should sell. Here’s how they go: Valued at €30m to €35m, there’s a notable profit to be made on their initial €10m outlay. They have replacements in-house: Paul Pogba is ready to step up and Andrea Poli is apparently likely to join in the summer. The money Juventus earn, in addition to the mooted sales of Alessandro Matri and Fabio Quagliarella, will be used to sign the fabled ‘top player’ – the Sergio Aguero or Robin van Persie they’ve missed out on in recent years.

It’d be a real gamble, one that - at least from what Juventus are saying - it appears they’re not prepared to risk. General manager Beppe Marotta insists “we’re not a selling club” and talks to extend Vidal’s existing contract beyond 2016 are anticipated. Conte’s response to the speculation was as follows: “If we want to build an important team we need to keep the best elements. To be deprived of some of my players would be tough.”

Everyone has a price, though, as Juventus supporters are only too aware. Back in 2001, they looked on as the club sold Zinedine The Bald Algerian to Real Madrid for a then world record fee of €75m and then used the proceeds to buy Gigi Buffon and Lilian Thuram from Parma and Nedved from Lazio that same summer. If that’s the example Juventus intend to follow, so be it.

To state the obvious Vidal isn’t The Bald Algerian, but he is a history maker, an integral part of the team that went unbeaten in Serie A last season and looks likely to retain its title this term. Were King Artur, as he’s known, to be sold, it would be a shame, a move that’d be mourned by his subjects in the Curva at the Juventus Stadium. And while there’s a temptation to say long may he reign in Turin, the truth is that over the coming months we may just have to watch the throne.
Follow James Horncastle on Twitter.com

[red]

Don't think there would be much doubt he's been Juve's player of the season.

Pretty hard to come up with better allround midfielders better than him at this point.

[Bagg10]

He's definitely been the most consistent. It would be a shame if the management decided to cash in on him, especially since I think he'd be a steal ay 30-35 mil euros (relative to other price tags).

What do you think the chances of Villa leaving Barca in the summer are? And if he does, what are the chances he'd come to Juve? And would he even be the player we're looking for? And what about Ibra?

[red]

Don't think Juve have any intention of letting him leave this summer. Supposedly there were talks with his agent the other day over a contract extension to 2018. Next summer could be a more tempting point to cash in if Juve have other areas that need to be strengthened and Pogba has continued to develop well.

Was reading a thing in Gazzetta the other day saying Villa, along with Sanchez, was available this summer to anyone making a reasonable offer. He's a great player and would a lot of sense as a signing in terms of his style of play, but Juve seem to have there heart set on getting someone younger. Most places seem to think Villa is heading to Arsenal.

Don't see any real prospect of Juve getting Ibrahimovic, though I'm starting to think there is a fair chance of him moving away from PSG in the summer given how much Raiola has been talking recently. He's currently earning more than double what anyone at Juve is getting at the moment.

[red]

Be curious to see how 3-6-1 would do against Milan.

3-5-2 really hasn't worked against them and their 4-3-3.

Putting the extra man in midfield might cause Milan to pull Boateng into a central area - to try and avoid being overwhelmed in there - and make their system more of a 4-3-1-2, which would make for a much more comfortable tactical match-up for Juve and their back three.

Hope Juve do play 3-5-1-1 and Milan do start 4-3-3 because I would like to see if putting the extra midfielder in the team will help Juve against decent teams playing wingers and there aren't many opportunities in Serie A for that experiment to take place.

[Zoff82]

Off topic: Moratti is such a whiney, old whore. Expect another calciopoli because Inter on the decline and will be the laughing stock of Serie A once again. He's already crying about the refs (so does the rest of Serie A but he's been more vocal) and pointing the finger at some other clubs. Think he can pull off that scam twice?? It seems that Serie A has returned to the pre-calciopoli era.

[juventino_italiano]

[red]

Well that was a truly dreadful game.

Juve couldn't keep possession if their lives depended on it and Milan could have played all day and still not done anything remotely clever or incisive in the final third.

Total lack of aggression and intensity from both sides.

Game was decided because Juve don't have any fuckwits like Abate in their team.

Juve really need to decide if this focus on playing the ball short a goal kicks is worth the hassle. There is no real reward for it and they are running ever greater risks by continuing with that ploy.

Some of the struggles in possession were understandable, as Juve are adjusting to a new shape and different movement, but a lot of it was just down to carelessness and players not appearing to be as focused as they ought to have been.

As for the 3-5-1-1, it's hard to say much about how it works as an attacking option because Juve didn't work the ball out from the back well enough to get themselves in position to really mount many attacks.

Thought Juve's midfield was pretty horrible when they didn't have the ball. Despite having the extra man in midfield, Juve never looked like winning the ball in there or being able to really impose themselves on the game and control that area of the pitch. Was ridiculous how many of the loose balls in midfield Milan were able to pick up despite being a man short.

Juve looked solid enough when they just retreated and held their shape. The 3-5-1-1 did work in that regard because Vidal was able to move wider in order to avoid Juve being outnumbered on the flanks.

Just can't believe how little aggression was shown by the two teams.

[red]

In other news, Llorente scored today:

http://www.goalsarena.org/video/spain-l ... ao_en.html

[RomaShield27]

It was a terrible game alright, really poor stuff from both sides. Juventus were clearly happy to sit back and let Milan try break them down, and were clearly aiming for a 0-0 draw or low scoring win, and as Milan are just so shit at attacking and really lacking any ideas, it made for a pretty dire game.

Don't know what the story with Juventus' formation was. Why be so ultra defensive when playing at home in a game which was there for the taking? Yes, you did win in the end, but it could have easily been a draw and there was no need to play like that in the first place. Was it just because you have four central midfielders who are all in good form and want them all to play at the expense of one of your forwards who are not in such good form? Surely you couldn't have been that worried about Milan's midfield? Seems like you were sacrificing the overall balance and set-up of the team just to accommodate an extra player in an already crowded midfield.

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No surprises with this. Time and time again it happens and nothing is done about it (bar a meagre fine). Hope the game when you should be celebrating your scudetto victory is behind closed doors with no fans, but knowing the authorities they'll probably find some excuse not to do that so as not to upset too many people.

Juve risk ban for racist abuse
http://www.football-italia.net/33360/ju ... cist-abuse / Sunday April 21 2013

Juventus may be marching towards the title, but they risk a ban on their home stadium after racist abuse was aimed at Milan’s players in tonight's 1-0 win. The Bianconeri have already received several fines and warnings, so could be forced to play a match behind closed doors.

Despite the Juve ultras group Drughi releasing a statement urging their members not to use racist insults, there were monkey noises aimed towards Kevin-Prince Boateng in the warm-up.

Boateng heard them and reacted, putting his finger to his lips to shut them up. A message was read over the tannoy system warning the hooligans to stop.

To make matters worse, the next home match against Palermo will probably see Juve clinch the Scudetto and that game could well be played behind closed doors.

[red]

The official line is that the 3-5-1-1 thing has come about because of Pogba's good form. In reality I believe it has more to do with Conte losing patience with Juve's forwards. It worked well away to Lazio because Juve really imposed themselves on the game, unlike last night where they just sat back and used the extra man to clog things up.

Conte planned to use it against Bayern, but then Vucinic wasn't fit and no-one else was deemed suitable to play as the lone striker. Could be that Conte sees the system as a solution to 3-5-2's weakness on the flanks.

Juve have avoided a stadium ban this season because they do seem to be trying pretty hard to stamp out the racism. Still, if there isn't much sign of a club's efforts working the authorities have to step in and do something.

Would be quite funny if Juve's Scudetto party was in an empty stadium.