THE WOLF'S DEN - Tana dei Lupi II

[loazzi]

[maro]

I have never seen a formation that so is so clearly a hybrid - LE's is absolutely half 4-3-3 and half 3-4-1-2. Of course my football-watching experience is not all that great, but I have certainly never seen a tactical set-up that is so clearly a mix of two quite clearly distinct formations. Indeed, I'm not sure I've ever seen a tactical set-up that is so singular and has such a clear identity as LE's.

[red]

I wouldn't have thought a DM having a deeper average position than a wingback would be that unusual these days, Loazzi.

Anyway, I haven't watched Roma yet this season, so I'm not really in a position to disagree with any of your tactical analysis.

[maro]

Yeah, don't disagree with him, red - because he's right, as you'll see when you do see Roma, I'm sure. As I've said before, for me the formation resembles nothing so much as the last Scudetto's 3-5-2 (3-4-1-2). Which, as Lavazza says, is why Taddei as 'fullback' makes much more sense than it might otherwise appear - as does Cassetti as 'centre-back). My only disagreements with Lavazza's comments are on DDR as 'mezz'ala' and on the incongruity of our front three (since the 3-4-1-2 actually requires centre-forwards rather than wing-forwards, such as Caprari). I think I also laid out why I think Pizza would be a fish out of water in a 4-3-3 at the beginning of the summer, though I don't actually think it needs to be the case since one doesn't actually need symmetry in the midfield three, and so if Pizza is alongside DDR and someone who gets forward, he can still do a job stitching things together in a lop-sided version of the 4-2-3-1.

The real thing Lamela will offer, I believe, is a player who can beat his man 1-on-1. The other 'forward' will offer movement and profondita'; Lamela would break open a team defending deep which left him a chance to run at his fullback. That, at any rate, is my guess on the basis of what others have said about him - still never having seen him play myself.

[loazzi]

Maro, i agree that you don't need symmetry in the midfield 3 and I do have some reservations about DDR as a mezz'ala. BUT....1) the central DM in LE's system must ALWAYS stay behind the ball. The most dangerous Roma looked all game this past Sunday was when DDR made a late run through the middle, causing the defense to lose their shape. This would have never happened if we were not down a goal late in a game b/c DDR as the CDM would not have had the liberty to make that run. 2) I think DDR is more dangerous making those runs and linking up play than pretty much any other midfielder we have (except maybe Pjanic, who will be playing as an AM anyway or Lamela who will be playing as either an AM or a wide forward), particularly because of the threat of his unleashing a long-distance rocket. I know that takes Perrotta out of the equation but I think DDR potentially brings more to that role than Perrotta, but ONLY if we can find someone that can adequately fill the DM position.

As of right now, I don't know if I trust anyone else as that DM besides DDR. I am interested in seeing if Gago can do it. I'm also interested in seeing Viviani get a shot. He really intrigues me as he strikes me as a combination of a poor man's DDR combined with a poor man's Pizarro, to form a potentially very rich Viviani.

As far as the forwards go, if we can't get forwards who can really start from wide and cut in, LE must adjust his system as having 3 forwards starting out more centrally (even if one starts a little further back) crowds the middle and is much easier to defend.

[maro]

[Lupa]

When Angel went out of Sunday's game, I suggested Taddei for RB, so I don't think it's that crazy an idea.

LE will have to come up with a strategy for when teams defend very deeply. It's pretty common for small teams, and any teams that saw our difficulties in the last part of the pitch would opt for this. Having said that,
1) I hope Lamela will help in those situations
2) I don't expect Inter to defend deeply

In fact, I hope Inter don't defend at all!

[loazzi]

Two solutions for teams that defend deeply. Combining the 2 is optimal. 1) Have forwards that start from a wide position in order to spread the defense. This is where Mirko or Jeremy could have done WONDERS for us this year and why I think Caprari should be given a go. That opens things up tremendously. Borriello is not that player. was hoping Osvaldo could do it but he doesn't seem to want to drift out wide. 2) Have a player that has pace and ball handling skills attack directly, thereby forcing the defense to collapse on them, in turn, opening up space for others. This is where Lamela and Pjanic can help and another reason why Jeremy could have been really useful. Combine the 2 solutions and teams that defend deep will be torn to shreds. BTW, I am not innovative in this. I think this is what LE/Sabatini were hoping to accomplish in the mercato.

[maro]

No doubt Menez and Vooch would have been useful. That they wanted to leave meant that replacements were bought: two more new faces than might initially have been imagined. I don't believe LE's tactics include generating serious width across the front three. That would, no doubt, be one solution (and the most conventional) but it doesn't seem to be his. Rather, I think his tactics are based around patience: keeping the ball and continuing to look for options. And when teams defend deep the wingbacks will be the players who give the width, in the most exaggerated case producing a front four, with what looks like the prima punta of a 4-3-3 just behind them and the occasional push from one of the mezz'ale added to the mix too. A wing-forward who holds his width is a different kind of option, but not of the first set to which LE's tactics will turn.

One thing I would say about the weekend - and thought to myself about 60 minutes in - was that I've rarely seen us dominate possession so completely and look so unexposed on the break. LE will cling to this, I think, as vindication of his tactics. Sure Biondini hit the crossbar, but from 20 yards and from a set-play. So LE will be inclined to think that even against teams who defend deep and play on the counter there's nothing to suggest that his tactics won't produce more chances than they concede.

[Bagg10]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=801

Serie A fantasy league, join up bitches.

[loazzi]

The problem however with the forwards all playing more centrally and only the wingbacks creating width is that it is clogs up the middle, making it much easier to defend as there is much less "space" to defend. Stretching the defense out wider would create much more space to attack, with both passing and/or dribbling. Keeping the forwards more centrally positioned eliminates spaces to run or pass, hence the repeated passing around the "perimeter" because despite patience, nothing is going to open up with the middle being so congested. Unless you have incredibly skilled players that can work miracles in incredibly tight spaces, having 3 centrally-positioned forwards is just stupid. Sabatini knew this, which is why in the beginning of the summer, he referred to Borriello as a "problem," not because he is a bad player, just because he offers nothing as a wider forward.

The little that I saw Lamela, he played centrally as a 3quartista. I have no idea if he can play as a wide forward. Either the "outside" forwards MUST play wider or the "central" forward MUST play more withdrawn as a 3quartista, IMO.

[maro]

Sure. We've talked about this earlier in the summer, Lavazza. It seems desperately unconventional and counter-intuitive to have the front three play the way LE has them play. I'm working from the assumption that his will be the tactics that apply, though, and trying to figure them out (given that I think I can say without a shred of false humility that a professional football coach and ex-professional footballer is likely to be ahead of rather than behind me when it comes to such things). LE may be wrong, but I need to get my head around why he might not be rather than simply insisting that he must be - that, at any rate, is my modus operandi here.

[loazzi]

But you're basing you're assumption that he has the players that he WANTS at forward. It may be that he prefers the outside forward to attack from wider but since he doesn't have the players to do that, he may be trying to figure out how to make slight adaptations that work without changing too much. There was a reason he wanted Vooch to stay and it wasn't to see his underpants (or maybe it was?).

[Lupa]

ESPN provides a heatmap for the game. You can check out DDR's position during the game.

This is the direct link for the gamecast, and then you can select heatmap. You can look at the complete team or by player.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/gamecast?id=327187&cc=5901

The tactical formation is interesting too, as you see where the players as a team spent the most time. Collie had a similar diagram, but I'm sure it was reversed because it seemed to have Angel coming forward on the right if I recall correctly. There is a big contrast between the 'average position' of the tactical formation of Cagliari and that of Roma. (not to bring back an 'average position' debate)

[arthurfonzarelli]

[DCGweez]

The wingbacks getting forward is hardly unconventional in football today. More so in this system, with 3 CM's your only width comes from the forwards and backline. But the interchangeability of players is key to the system. If you look at Barca they start MF's as CBs even when Pep has CBs available to him. Except for Pique but only then because his passing and pace are as good as any DMF on the team anyway.


The key concepts are to setup "squares" in the center of the pitch, both with and without the ball. Which is ideally why you don't want DDR to be pinned back as the deep lying midfielder. If he has tactical flexibility he can be involved in both. So generally moving back you have your 2 CB's, you DFM and one of your two other CM. (DDR obviously preferably to let's assume Pjanic)

Going forward, you have your central attacker and ideally the opposite side attacker to the ball. You then bring up your forward playing CMs. Those are your central attacking players. To use Barca (I don't love to compare us because our positioning and tactics can't be the same given the fact that their is less space in Serie A) as an example when Villa is out on the left you often see him sitting outside the 18 waiting as an outlet, not sitting in the center. It's because Messi is constantly coming in to the middle. To be the fourth part of the central Square.


What is really lost in all this is that, my concern is our ability to press. Having that backline play high is critical to getting past their backline and allowing our CM's to get forward. When you see horizontal passing like last week, you know the line isn't high enough. It's that back line that allows for vertical passing, even if it's backwards.

[DavidP]

a certain irishman owes me a bj of some sort.

[RomaShield27]

Why would that be, David? Mad busy at the moment, and pretty mental weekend coming up – its the All-Ireland final on Sunday, with the Dubs playing, so will be on the rampage. Looking forward to our game on Saturday, though, too, should just about squeeze it in.

Shit, no Juan for tomorrow:

Convocati: assenti Lamela, Cicinho e Juan
– Venerdì 16 Settembre 2011 14:38

[DDR]

?

[maro]

Triangles.